-273: Natural Doesn't Mean Good

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Natural Doesn't Mean Good

Why do the eco-skeptics get so much traction by claiming the the current warming trend is a "natural" process? Regardless of whether you think global warming is a man-made problem or just part of a predictable cycle that also gave us such great time periods as the ice ages, the effect of the change in temperature doesn't seem to be in great dispute. Why is it that calling global warming a "natural" process is at all an argument against doing somethign about it?

We certainly don't think of other "natural" processes this way. Death is a "natural" process, for example. We certainly don't let its "naturalness" keep us from spending 16% of our GDP on trying to delay it as long as possible.

Posted by david on 22 January 2008 at 11:51 AM

Comments

Sam Harris wrote about this for Edge's yearly question forum (all sorts of interesting essays in there). Though I think he underestimates the continuing effects of evolution on our species, it's encouraging to see this viewpoint more. More people need to consider that every organism shapes its ecological environment. Humans are just as "natural" as the organisms that have caused climate change in the past, and we should take advantage of our opportunity to choose how we affect the world, and make sure that it is for our benefit. Many of the most deadly substances we know are "natural." Vitalism has been completely banished from biology halls for nearly a century now, but it's a rather persistent natural intuition, and every time I bite into organic food that tastes better than industrial food I feel the intuitions of vitalism stirring again.

In the context of climate change in particular, however, I think the deniers' original argument went that humans can't possibly hope to change something as seemingly immutable as the environment, so climate change is just a silly notion, much less environmental regulations regarding climate change. So when the deniers' propaganda screen finally let in the evidence that climate really does seem to be changing, they must come up with some explanation that says no action should be taken. Namely, that the change is "natural" and there's nothing to be done about it, it must be endured, sure the environment is changing, but we're not doing it and we can't undo it. Eventually the thick propaganda screen of the media and the deniers will let us know that it's changing faster than any previous change, that human CO2 additions to atmosphere completely account for the change, and that if you exclude human CO2 emissions there's no way to explain the climate changes.

Public opinion on the feasibility of climate change seems to have swung so wildly since an Inconvenient Truth, maybe Al Gore will gift us with another nice palatable review of current science soon so that conservatives will be convinced before farmers' crops start behaving much differently than expected.

Posted by Charlie on 22 January 2008 - 1:17 PM

Oops, the link got lost somehow. Mother Nature is Not Our Friend by Sam Harris:

http://www.edge.org/q2008/q08_12.html#harriss

Posted by Charlie on 22 January 2008 - 1:21 PM

Well, keep in mind that calling it "natural" is a way to save face for the folks (read: conservatives) that said "there's no such thing as global warming." Now, they can say "yes, there's enough evidence _now_ (but not a year ago...), but humans aren't the cause of it. So it's natural and cyclical."

Perhaps unfortunately, I tend to take a more hard-lined view on the subject than the two of you, as I don't really pussyfoot around it: it's happening, we're causing it, and there's plenty of evidence to support it.

Just as you both said (or alluded to), regardless of whether it's "natural" or not, it's happening and needs to be addressed. And as long as it gets addressed, I guess I don't care whether people believe we're behind the problem or not.

Posted by Andy on 24 January 2008 - 8:18 AM

I agree with Andy. Global Hotness is caused by goat milk and baby carrots mixing in the oceans. It is utterly (no pun intended) indisputable. The water goats bark in the solar system and carrots fall onto the sea floor. At which point gasses such as hydrosulamiteate bubble to the surface. The hawks breathe it in, causing them to screech very loudly. This is causes the earth’s plates to move and volcanoes to erupt, swallowing up all the hawks in the surrounding areas. The volcanic gasses burn the hawks and release burning hot typhoons all over the globe. Some of them melt the ice caps in Liechtenstein near the North Pole, the oceans rise, and the earth heats up a half a degree over a century (150 years) span. Thus you have the Climate Warmness we see today. Good point Andy!.

Posted by Richard Neckses on 28 January 2008 - 12:12 PM

Good point Richard and Andy. I never thought about baby carrots. I mean, I know that in the past 10-15 years the water goat population has grown, thus leading to this change in climate but I thought there had to be something else contributing to this. I never would have thought baby carrots. I strongly feel that if we might be able to gather up all the water goats and bring them to the ocean, that they might be able to eat enough of these baby carrots to slowdown or even stop the rapid warming of the earth. Do you agree?

Posted by Chad Faceridge on 29 January 2008 - 7:11 AM

First off, I would like to thank Andy for not “pussyfooting” around about this issue. The water goats have been slowly destroying this planet for the last 150 years. I think we can all agree on that. What I do find concerning is that there is a lot of debate, but no real ideas to combat the problem. All the ideas out there focus to heavily on the baby carrots. We need to act quickly to stop the expansion of the water goat population; this is the root cause of Global Hotness. When are these “fat cats” in Washington going to wake up and smell the "goats milk"? I have the answer my friends...when it's too late. Someone needs to reach out to the water goats and remind them that it's not just their planet they are harming; it belongs to humans and the chicken hawkusaurus as well.

Posted by Stewbert Poelhuise Sr. on 31 January 2008 - 7:48 PM

Because the expansion and contraction of arctic ice forms almost a pure sine wave it's so scheduled?

Because the global ice caps underwent a record expansion this winter?

Because Boy-howdy-Gore's own graph in his movie shows upticks in C02 after, not before, global temperature rise? (on every single instance in fact, go watch it again)

Because global temperatures have NOT increased since the natural increase of the 90's?

Because scientists have show that plants are growing faster in response to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, and as they grow they take in exponentially more CO2 and convert it to O2? (see Israel forest, Ben-Sharon I believe)

Because Water, not C02, is a more powerful greenhouse gas by a factor of 100 or so, and you nitwits want to make Hydrogen cars that produce, GUESS WHAT? fricking water vapor!! WOOHOO, more greenhouse gases!

So if you want to stop global warming, get rid of all the damn water, not all the CO2.

Posted by nah on 7 February 2008 - 9:22 PM

Wow, that's the most compact list of lies and red herrings I've seen yet. It's seldom that anyone has so much time to become so well misinformed, kudos! Have you considered a career as a corrupt politician, lobbyist, or lawyer?

http://www.realclimate.org/ - The solution to all of these chestnuts. It does for climate change deniers what http://www.talkorigins.org/ does for creationists.

My favorite in your list is the complaint about rain, because it should be obvious to even slightly thoughtful non-specialists. The best way to lower the amount of water vapor is to lower the amount of CO2 and other, non-precipitating, green house gases. Change the temperature, change the amount of water vapor. We all know about relative humidity, right?

Posted by Charlie on 11 February 2008 - 12:38 AM

Charlie, Nah and company,

You guys are totally missing Andy’s point (AGAIN!). It is as if you are refusing to even address the existence of global hotness with regards to the water goat and baby carrot population. Let me put it in simpler, less scientific, terms for you (with a bit of background info). Lets be real, this all started at the insect level - like everything does with nature. As soon as the bumble crickets stopped pollinating the pine cones with their neck secretions; water goats have had a virtual “free for all” in the food chain. Every reasonably educated hetero-sapien (human mammal) understands pine cones are the most important food source for the water goat’s #1 predator, the grizzly manatee. Without pine cones, the grizzly manatees’ dorsal fins cannot develop properly, thus leading to slower under-water travel. Meanwhile, all the burning hot typhoons on earth (see my earlier post and explanation) spur the development of the water goats’ antler type flippers, resulting in faster water goats. These two drastic changes in animal move-ability are so obviously resulting in: less bubble cricket neck secretions, less grizzly manatees, more water goats, more baby carrots, and more hawk screeches, that I can’t even believe we are engaging in all this rhetoric. I want someone to go point by point and rebut the scientific explanations found in my last two posts on this subject and refrain from the credulous ad hominem (look it up) attacks on me and my family! Let’s stick to the facts people! Andy doesn’t seem to have any trouble with that now does he?!

Posted by Richard Neckses on 11 February 2008 - 2:10 PM

What is the deal. It was been clearly stated by Andy the true cause of the global warming and now I come read two rediculous posting by one Nah and the other Charlie. People have we not learned from our past mistakes. Did the expantion of the watergoats and baby carrots not tell us anything. Well, it sure told Andy. We need to quit pussyfooting around this issue like Andy has already done. Andy, Richard Neckus, Stewbert Poelhuise and myself get it, why can't you two goobers. Nah and Charlie, as Stewbert put it before, you need to wake up and smell the goats milk. This getting rid of H20 and chicken pox BS has got to stop. If we do not put an end to the hawks screeching and baby carrots we will not have a planet, all it will be is big bowl of chicken hawk and baby carrot stew.

Posted by Chad Faceridge on 11 February 2008 - 5:24 PM

Charlie, not to pick on you but I still don't see where you have any solutions to the issue, just a bunch of left-wing rhetoric. I know it is hard to get through that liberal brain of yours that we need to start killing water goats. I know... I know...they’re "special" and have the right to life just as you and I.... bull. We need to take action and not just complain and list a bunch of socialist web sites. Do you think that if we all just sit around and "play nice" that the water goats are going to stop contributing to global hotness? Andy where are you when we need you. You need to step in here and set the record straight.

Posted by Stewbert Poulhuise Sr. on 11 February 2008 - 8:41 PM

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For Chad Faceridge Everyone Gets an 'A' You Should See the Other Guy HRC Thinks I'm Second-Class Natural Doesn't Mean Good I-64 Update 2005 Chateau Beychevelle The Jefferson Bottles	David is an occasional blogger, software engineer, Nintendo fanboy, liberal, news magazine addict, voracious TiVo user, and bibliophile. He was born in St. Louis, grew up in southern Indiana, and returned to St. Louis to attend Washington University. He hasn't managed to escape yet. He's a fan of free wine tastings, too many tv shows to name, and eating out. David makes his living developing web applications used internally by his employer. He doesn't blog about work because he's heard too many stories about that causing workplace troubles. There's more on the about page.	archives features links photos contact
Recent Comments
Charlie, not to pick on you but I still don't see where you have any solutions to the issue, just a bunch of left-wing rhetoric. I know it is hard to get through that liberal brain of yours that we need to start killing water goats. I know... I know...they’re "special" and have the right to life just as you and I.... bull. We need to take action and not just complain and list a bunch of socialist web sites. Do you think that if we all just sit around and "play nice" that the water goats are going to stop contributing to global hotness? Andy where are you when we need you. You need to step in here and set the record straight. What is the deal. It was been clearly stated by Andy the true cause of the global warming and now I come read two rediculous posting by one Nah and the other Charlie. People have we not learned from our past mistakes. Did the expantion of the watergoats and baby carrots not tell us anything. Well, it sure told Andy. We need to quit pussyfooting around this issue like Andy has already done. Andy, Richard Neckus, Stewbert Poelhuise and myself get it, why can't you two goobers. Nah and Charlie, as Stewbert put it before, you need to wake up and smell the goats milk. This getting rid of H20 and chicken pox BS has got to stop. If we do not put an end to the hawks screeching and baby carrots we will not have a planet, all it will be is big bowl of chicken hawk and baby carrot stew. Charlie, Nah and company, You guys are totally missing Andy’s point (AGAIN!). It is as if you are refusing to even address the existence of global hotness with regards to the water goat and baby carrot population. Let me put it in simpler, less scientific, terms for you (with a bit of background info). Lets be real, this all started at the insect level - like everything does with nature. As soon as the bumble crickets stopped pollinating the pine cones with their neck secretions; water goats have had a virtual “free for all” in the food chain. Every reasonably educated hetero-sapien (human mammal) understands pine cones are the most important food source for the water goat’s #1 predator, the grizzly manatee. Without pine cones, the grizzly manatees’ dorsal fins cannot develop properly, thus leading to slower under-water travel. Meanwhile, all the burning hot typhoons on earth (see my earlier post and explanation) spur the development of the water goats’ antler type flippers, resulting in faster water goats. These two drastic changes in animal move-ability are so obviously resulting in: less bubble cricket neck secretions, less grizzly manatees, more water goats, more baby carrots, and more hawk screeches, that I can’t even believe we are engaging in all this rhetoric. I want someone to go point by point and rebut the scientific explanations found in my last two posts on this subject and refrain from the credulous ad hominem (look it up) attacks on me and my family! Let’s stick to the facts people! Andy doesn’t seem to have any trouble with that now does he?! Wow, that's the most compact list of lies and red herrings I've seen yet. It's seldom that anyone has so much time to become so well misinformed, kudos! Have you considered a career as a corrupt politician, lobbyist, or lawyer? http://www.realclimate.org/ - The solution to all of these chestnuts. It does for climate change deniers what http://www.talkorigins.org/ does for creationists. My favorite in your list is the complaint about rain, because it should be obvious to even slightly thoughtful non-specialists. The best way to lower the amount of water vapor is to lower the amount of CO2 and other, non-precipitating, green house gases. Change the temperature, change the amount of water vapor. We all know about relative humidity, right? Because the expansion and contraction of arctic ice forms almost a pure sine wave it's so scheduled? Because the global ice caps underwent a record expansion this winter? Because Boy-howdy-Gore's own graph in his movie shows upticks in C02 after, not before, global temperature rise? (on every single instance in fact, go watch it again) Because global temperatures have NOT increased since the natural increase of the 90's? Because scientists have show that plants are growing faster in response to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, and as they grow they take in exponentially more CO2 and convert it to O2? (see Israel forest, Ben-Sharon I believe) Because Water, not C02, is a more powerful greenhouse gas by a factor of 100 or so, and you nitwits want to make Hydrogen cars that produce, GUESS WHAT? fricking water vapor!! WOOHOO, more greenhouse gases! So if you want to stop global warming, get rid of all the damn water, not all the CO2. First off, I would like to thank Andy for not “pussyfooting” around about this issue. The water goats have been slowly destroying this planet for the last 150 years. I think we can all agree on that. What I do find concerning is that there is a lot of debate, but no real ideas to combat the problem. All the ideas out there focus to heavily on the baby carrots. We need to act quickly to stop the expansion of the water goat population; this is the root cause of Global Hotness. When are these “fat cats” in Washington going to wake up and smell the "goats milk"? I have the answer my friends...when it's too late. Someone needs to reach out to the water goats and remind them that it's not just their planet they are harming; it belongs to humans and the chicken hawkusaurus as well. Good point Richard and Andy. I never thought about baby carrots. I mean, I know that in the past 10-15 years the water goat population has grown, thus leading to this change in climate but I thought there had to be something else contributing to this. I never would have thought baby carrots. I strongly feel that if we might be able to gather up all the water goats and bring them to the ocean, that they might be able to eat enough of these baby carrots to slowdown or even stop the rapid warming of the earth. Do you agree? I agree with Andy. Global Hotness is caused by goat milk and baby carrots mixing in the oceans. It is utterly (no pun intended) indisputable. The water goats bark in the solar system and carrots fall onto the sea floor. At which point gasses such as hydrosulamiteate bubble to the surface. The hawks breathe it in, causing them to screech very loudly. This is causes the earth’s plates to move and volcanoes to erupt, swallowing up all the hawks in the surrounding areas. The volcanic gasses burn the hawks and release burning hot typhoons all over the globe. Some of them melt the ice caps in Liechtenstein near the North Pole, the oceans rise, and the earth heats up a half a degree over a century (150 years) span. Thus you have the Climate Warmness we see today. Good point Andy!.
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